Feat Choice

So with our new level I've been looking at what feat to get. I know there aren't a ton of choices that won't get picked considering we get 6 before we can choose from the paragon tier. So the real question is which of should be picked soonest to get the most use. The few I am torn on for this level is:Dodge Giatns, Durable, and Dwarven weapon training.

So you guys don't need to look anything up just for a forum post, Dodge giants gives me +1 to AC and reflex against any creature large or bigger, Durable gives me two extra healing surges per day (making the total 14) and dwarven weapon training aside from giving me proficienxy with axes and hammer (which I already have) gives +2 damage to both of those. To me the real question comes down to whether or not get a defensive feat, which makes sense because I am the defender, or get the damage feat. I think the damage feat is actually really good since its 2 extra damage to everything anytime I hit basically. But, I also noticed I use my healing surges like crazy with my lay on hands for other people, my own healing, and our trust warlord having to heal me because i'm constantly getting beat on.

I'm thinking of going with the dwarven weapon training because extra damage always helps, and at least this last time by the time my healing surges got really low everyone's resources were pretty much depleted waiting for rest anyway. So right now I'm leaning mostly towards the dwarven weapon training feat

There are actually some pretty sweet feats I'm thinking of getting in the future but aren't necessary for this level. Ritual Caster for example, so I can raise dead at whatever the minimum level is... 6 I think.

P.S. I wish I could take warrior feats they have some freaking sweet ones! but alas, I don't really want to multi-class into a fighter just yet. I might in the future though.

P.P.S what feats did you guys go with?

I'd say that you should focus on defense because that would make the most sense for the needs of our party, and because you are the only tank-like person, but that could get really boring really fast. So, then I'd say that you should focus on your offensive abilities, because you are ALSO the most likely to meet our melee offensive need and becasue it would be more fun, but then whose going to keep us alive? I dunno, I guess in the end go with what will be more fun and figure out the rest afterward.

I'm probably going to go with the Ritual Caster feat.

I took Burning Blizzard (+1 to Cold and Acid Dmg) because it has the biggest payoffs at this level.

Patrick, if you're asking for a neutral opinion (when neutral = someone who is less interested in how fun it will be to play your character than in how useful he will be to the whole party), then I would say go with Durable. Dodge Giants is nice, but only applicable to large creatures, whereas healing surges are usable any time you please; and between myself and Amnon and Kyden we've got the offense pretty well covered. Ultimately, though, with a party of five we've got some flexibility, so I would say go with whatever you want.

As for myself, I was gravitating towards Far Shot (which increases my range increment by 25%), but that is mostly useful in outdoors situations and it seems possible that we will be spending a lot more time in dungeons, so that may not be the best choice. At this point my main interest is in maximizing Krieg's skill versatility, so the main contenders are either Sure Climber (climb at normal speed) or Long Jumper (make standing jumps as if from running start), with Improved Initiative as a feat that I am sure I want to take sometime between now and 6th level. If anyone has other suggestions, though, I'd be open to opinions.

Yeah, I think with krieg, kyden and Amnon w do have offense pretty well covered. I think I will go with one of the defense feats. I wasn't choosing the damage one because i thought it would be more fun, I was thinking of picking it up because I thought mathematically it would be more useful. Basically thinking ok 2 more healing surges might not get used each day, but that +2 to damage will be added every single time I hit with anything. The other one I thought of was the +2 toopportunity attacks feat which seems pretty strong since in 4e I just realized after that Dragon fight that there is no limit to OA's each round. BUt again it won't come up all the time. I think I will get the extra healing surges later(at 4th level) if they become an issue and will just go with the dodge giants feat. Heroes always fight creatures of large size.

As for Krieg and your decision I don't know off hand many feats that would work well for you but I would think the climbing one is pretty solid. My main reason for this is the fast you get somewhere the faster you start shooting, but also as a mainly ranged combatant you always want to put distance between you and enemies. I mean if you are up on rocks and shit all the time and Vhale is on the ground still an obvious threat they will go to me more, so I think that one works. The only other thought I would say is definitiely look at the racial feats, that goes for everyone really. From what I can tell depending on your class the racial feats are some of the best. For dragon born the enlarged breath weapon seems really good. Also, I don't know if rangers have many AoE options so that works for that as well. I did a quick look at the feats... I would say the hunter's quarry feat that increases your damage to d8's is really good too since you basically attack your quarry every round and that is a %20 damage increase overall on the quarry damage. My math is probably off it's 4:30 in the morning!!! BUt again that is more of a boring feat that just increases your numbers but seems like a good choice.

Side note to Krieg... Do rangers get a lot of abilities that increase crit chance? I see a couple feats for rangers deal specifically for when ciriticals are dealt.

Vhale Arkhan wrote:

Side note to Krieg... Do rangers get a lot of abilities that increase crit chance? I see a couple feats for rangers deal specifically for when ciriticals are dealt.

Funny you should ask, I was thinking about this myself. It seems like a whole crapload of stuff in 4e is geared towards crits, especially feats and magic items. However, I have not seen anything that allows you to increase your chances of actually landing a crit, just stuff that makes your crits more effective. This seems unfortunate to me, as I dislike investing in feats and/or magic items that come into play only 5% of the time.

Has anyone else noticed ways of increasing your crit range beyond natural 20s?

Under Critical Hits: Precision, in page 278, it says,

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Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20...

... but I'm not sure to which class features or powers they are referring.

The only thing I have seen so far is under certain weapons their properties state they have "high crit" which i believe means 19 and 20's count. There are only a couple of those though. Maybe higher up feats like paragon feats have Improved criticals or something, or possibly magic items. Those are the two areas I haven't look at at all really.

Yeah, I've seen the high crit weapons, of which there are few and none of which I use. There are a few cool Paragon feats that add effects to successful crits, such as Devastating Critical which adds 1d10 damage. None of them, as far as I can see, make it more likely that you can actually score a crit.

Most magic weapons seem to work in a similar way. I never really looked that closely at them before, but now that I do I have to say it seems a little disappointing. Take a basic example, like Flaming Weapon. You get extra damage on a crit, and obviously you get a bonus to all your attacks and damage for each plus. But otherwise you only get a daily power. Which is a cool power, don't get me wrong, but we just don't get to use dailies that often, and it seems a shame that the neat special properties of these weapons will come into play so seldom.

I actually prefer the items to have a on crit effect happen I like it. I think having a magic item that you can only use a daily power from just adds another idea to your weapon arsenal and doesn't just add a static buff to your player and combat. I think it's also a way to add more magic items without making pc's too overpowered.

Hm. Hadn't thought of it that way. Well, it's kind of dumb to judge without seeing it in action, so I guess we'll just have to see.

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but we just don't get to use dailies that often

I would keep in mind to this is the PC's option, so far the party is a pretty hardcore, balls to the walls, run and gun, and all those cliques party. Not to mention the first task they were charged with was somewhat limited in scale (a small tomb) and isn't the norm. Knowing you all as experienced players it gets meta-gamed a lot that we should "save our best for the boss" and stuff like that. While that thinking is usually right from like a play perspective it is ...powergaming and meta-gaming...I don't mind it but I would just say keep in mind that those powers could be used more but would slow down the pace of the game so just kinda falls into the players court on how to use them.

Maybe your character is not confident and uses them at the first hint of trouble, maybe he is overconfident and uses them because he feels like they don't need them to get by challenges and just likes to use them. Maybe he is a show-off and uses them just because he can. Just some ways of thinking about it as the character and not as a person controlling a moving piece....

Anyways the critical thing is a bit strange (lots of effects but only 5% to land) and I am going to look into if there is anything or anyway we can change it at all....though I know there are also a lot of powers that give multi-rolls and multiple chances to hit giving more opportunities to score that 5%

Dean wrote:

I would keep in mind to this is the PC's option.... those powers could be used more but would slow down the pace of the game so just kinda falls into the players court on how to use them.

That's kind of the point. "Daily powers" only get used once per day. It's really not flexible. Unless we stop for a daily rest after each encounter, which is a) lame, b) stupid, c) boring, and d) sufficiently cheesy that I would expect the DM to punish us for being lame, stupid, and boring. Otherwise, it's really not in the realm of player control.

Dean wrote:

Knowing you all as experienced players it gets meta-gamed a lot that we should "save our best for the boss" and stuff like that. While that thinking is usually right from like a play perspective it is ...powergaming and meta-gaming...

I don't think you are using powergaming and metagaming in their usually understood meanings. "Powergaming" is when your only concern with the game is being able to dominate and destroy, and often involves miraculously "rolling" 18s in every ability score and killing everything in sight. "Metagaming" means that you use non-game information in game situations, like solving a mystery by trying to anticipate your Dungeon Master's plans. Using your powers at appropriate times is simply thinking tactically in what has become, I think everyone can agree, a highly tactical combat system. Not doing this intelligently will get your character killed.

I was going to ramble about power-meta gaming but its not worth arguing about. Suffice to say there is more to power gaming that that wiki definition.

Anyways the point was you could use dailies more but for whatever reason (to much rest, to slow, etc) they haven't gotten used much yet. Oh also the bigger thing...you so far have like what 1 daily? The real reason they aren't used is because the party doesn't have many to use yet but at a higher level you will have whatever 5-6 dailies so they will get used a lot more I think. As of now it makes more sense since you only have 1 to use it at the "best" time

Dean wrote:

I was going to ramble about power-meta gaming but its not worth arguing about. Suffice to say there is more to power gaming that that wiki definition.

As you please. I thought the wiki about covered it. I've heard you use it in a much broader sense, though, so I'm not sure what it means to you.

Dean wrote:

you so far have like what 1 daily? The real reason they aren't used is because the party doesn't have many to use yet but at a higher level you will have whatever 5-6 dailies so they will get used a lot more I think. As of now it makes more sense since you only have 1 to use it at the "best" time

That's true, but not really the point. Eventually we will have 5-6 daily powers, giving us a good arsenal overall. But if you have a flaming sword, you still only get to use it once per day.

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That's true, but not really the point. Eventually we will have 5-6 daily powers, giving us a good arsenal overall. But if you have a flaming sword, you still only get to use it once per day.

True but like Patrick said it basically just adds to the arsenal without giving the players super powers. From what I have seen player dailies are almost all REALLY good and having access to a lot would be trouble. The item dailies (and some are even encounter) are good but not as good as player ones so while the weapon only gives you say a once per day it is still giving you that extra boost without making you rest and recharge your player stuff.
Thinking about it in my mind I think they give more than the old 3.5 magic items which were usually just an enhance bonus and maybe like a resist or something, these ones do those things plus give a little extra power or whatever. I guess maybe it's a balance thing really that like in a few levels most of the party would have ya know say 3 magic items each that have powers and they would be pretty strong with like that much to use I guess.

Though there are those with encounters too so check those out (like that wand Kyden has).
But yeah I mean I get what you are saying with it just don't get like that much out of high level items, kind of just semantics past that on WHY they do that. Your point is valid about how you feel.

Wow lots of thoughts on this thread. I just wanted to share a few thoughts.

As for feats and such looking through the feats there are some Paragon tier feats like Heavy blade specialization and such that would make the crit on a roll of 19 or 20. The 'high crit' weapons are still only on a 20 but they just add 1d10 damage on top of the max damage you do. It is really disappointing to see so many feats dedicated to things happening only when you crit, it would almost be better to just say 'once per encounter' instead of 'on critical hit'

Being a bit of a power gamer myself I have noticed one thing in this edition: almost everything is based on you hitting what you are attacking. There are very few things that happen before you hit or on a miss. Therefore the BIGGEST thing to look for in feats is if it will give you a bonus to your attack roll. Your base stat has one of the biggest influences on your attack bonus followed by your weapon proficiency, then your level. So any feat or power bonuses you can get are going to be a huge influence in whether you hit or not.
The final thing on that subject is try and take every opportunity to attack the creature you get the most bonuses to your attack roll on. (i.e. The Warlord gave you a bonus to hit the creature he is attacking, any creature you get combat advantage on, etc.)

That pretty much sums things up I just wish they had done a better job of making the feats more worthwhile. For my part I took Toughness this level so that I would have more hit points and so my healing surge would give me more hit points as well.

JUst ar eal quick reply to Jon, for the most part I think the feats are pretty worthwhile. Just singly the kind of suck on their own for the most part, but with that said we have 6 by level 10 which is a lot. Another aspect where its more about quantity than quality like in the magic item discussion. THey can't be all as good as the 3rd edition feats because we get more of them, and then things would get overpowered.

Yeah for the most part I do like the feats that they have available it just seemed like there were a lot that would only take effect when you get a critical strike. It is just hard to give up one of the other 'all the time' feats for one that would only happen 5% of the time. That was what I meant by saying it was a bit disapointing.

I don't know what you guys are bitching about, the Wizard has like 3 class specific feats, and all the others are kinda meh. At least at heroic level. So there. Bitches.

I think one thing we forget is that critical changed to max damage and not a random chance on a random chance to deal double damage. 3.5 made is possible on a crit to deal 2 damage with the bow from the example below but in 4e you deal 10 no matter what. So critical themselves are almost super powered of 3.5, not to mention you dont have to REROLL to see if you crit ya know like you just get it.

The 5% sucks but I bet if I did some math the extra damage it gives on the 5% is going to be worth it. Like doing 100% more damage on a 5% chance means over time you deal X% more damage with that item than a normal one. I think thats the key is the bonus it DOES give when you get it to crit is so good it would be crazy to let it happen all the time....I mean imagine a striker, say a ranger, with a bow that does 1d10 on a crit, so he uses whatever say Nimble Strike and deals dmg...Well he crit so 10 damage from the bow (maxed from crit) plus 1d6 for quarry plus 1d10 for extra bow power damage. 26 potential damage versus his 16 potential before....and that is possible on a level 10 item (which you could potentially get at like level 5) Also this didn't factor in bonus damage from levels. I am to lazy to actually calculate out the percent that increases the damage of the item but long run it's a lot.
Average damage from a crit from this weapon would be what 10 (crit) + 3 (quarry) + 5 (bonus) = 18 damage
Average from a normal would be 10+3 = 13....Over 130% better, 5% of the time. The long calc would be average damage including crits etc...

I think what they were going for in this edition is like mentioned "quantity over quality" plus like the BIGGEST thing to me is the "scaling" of 1/2 level, with that I think the players don't see it but they are gaining a ton of power every level. AND it helps every class because it's basically on everything so ya first level encounters and dailies are going to be used at level 10 etc. I think we just have to look at it in a new way not like holding it versus 3.5 but holding it on it's own.

Also think about this stuff extrapolated to a WHOLE party of 5 PC's.....

Dean wrote:

I think what they were going for in this edition is like mentioned "quantity over quality" plus like the BIGGEST thing to me is the "scaling" of 1/2 level, with that I think the players don't see it but they are gaining a ton of power every level.

Although this is nothing new. It's just a simpler mechanic that replaces the progressions that used to be tiered based on class. In 3.5, a wizard got a +1 to attack every other level too; Fighters got +1 to attack at every level. And he didn't have to fight kobolds with more hit points than we do and ACs pushing 20 at 1st level. It's all relative.

Dean wrote:

I think we just have to look at it in a new way not like holding it versus 3.5 but holding it on it's own.

True.

Dean wrote:

Also think about this stuff extrapolated to a WHOLE party of 5 PC's.....

That's a good point, and clearly something that needs to be taken into consideration. For what it's worth, I think you've done a good job so far of making the encounters difficult enough to challenge a party of five without getting the point of overwhelming us.

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That's a good point, and clearly something that needs to be taken into consideration. For what it's worth, I think you've done a good job so far of making the encounters difficult enough to challenge a party of five without getting the point of overwhelming us.

Thanks, I appreciate that. That has been my goal is to make the fights fair but not like just a mad romp by players (though this last fight turned into a massacre by the PC's, lol). It is a tough line because I don't want to go to far and just make the PCs throw your hands up and say ok fine dude you win we can't beat this but I dont want you to say "whatever he wont kill us" either.

I myself have noticed 4e does put more emphasis on party planning and power in my eyes versus 3.5 just made your guy a solo power grouped with other solo powers. In this some classes (read:Warlord) are only there to help the party as a whole...its an interesting dynamic shift in the game.

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impler mechanic that replaces the progressions that used to be tiered based on class. In 3.5, a wizard got a +1 to attack every other level too; Fighters got +1 to attack at every level. And he didn't have to fight kobolds with more hit points than we do and ACs pushing 20 at 1st level. It's all relative.

Yeah you are right, I guess maybe I meant since all the attack benefit from it to it is bigger? I guess really it's mostly for "spell" casters who in the other editions say the old spells because dog shit after a level or three.

Dravin wrote:

Being a bit of a power gamer myself I have noticed one thing in this edition: almost everything is based on you hitting what you are attacking. There are very few things that happen before you hit or on a miss. Therefore the BIGGEST thing to look for in feats is if it will give you a bonus to your attack roll. Your base stat has one of the biggest influences on your attack bonus followed by your weapon proficiency, then your level. So any feat or power bonuses you can get are going to be a huge influence in whether you hit or not.

I agree. Unless I missed something, though, I can't find any feats that give you a flat bonus to attack rolls. Excepting a few examples, like Precise Hunter, which grants a +1 to hit after you score a critical hit. (Which is a small bonus, and would come into play so seldom, that it's almost retarded.) I would love bonuses to my attack, if I can get any, so if you have suggestions I am open.

Ya i was about to say weapon focus out of habit, but then i looked and it is just to damage. There really isn't a lot for +hit with feats. I would say make sure you use the best weapon for the proficiency bonus